108 vs 110 lobe separation

When choosing a cam, power gains shouldn't be the only consideration. Kevko baffled oil pan & Milidon windage tray. from the intake to the exhaust and vise-versa.Thats why a performance cam will usually have a rougher idle than a stock one. 15,215. ohio. A good amount of idle vacuum or increased idle vacuum found at 110 LSA advances the engines efficiency. An RV or towing camshaft, which is considered a mild performance or an economy cam, will often have a narrower LSA, between 112 and 114 degrees. *If you do not have enough vacuum, you can in some cases install a vacuum canister or reservoir, which works by storing the peak vacuum in the reservoir. Pick the cam with the valve timing events that fit the engine best, forget about LSA, it is only a result of the events. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. The world of fuel injection is where wide LSA cams like the 113 really shine. Engine builders Chuck Lawrence, left, and Doug Patton. 2.1.3 Transponder reply modes (air-to-ground) 2.1.3.1 Transponders shall respond to Mode A interrogations in accordance with the provisions of 3.1.1.7.12.1 and to Mode C interrogations in accordance . Valve lift will bear weight in any decision regarding LSA. Everyone has a different idea of gentle.While its true that the duntov cam may seem rough in a 283 it is still a factory offering and they never go to radical on there profiles for street cars.If you want a rough idle, try a 283 with a .550'lift roller and 13.5 to 1 compression,THATS ROUGH. whats the difference in how the car will run. See all 14 photos 13 The three power curves indicate that the wide (120-degree). 108 is very tight producing lower vacuum and more of a 2 stroke "punch" powerband. 106 LSA: As the 106 LSA is a tighter LSA, it fails to generate maximum power. A cam card with its myriad numbers, acronyms, and abbreviations is one red-pen stroke away from a failed math test. I normally run a 106 to a 108 because I like the "hit" a tighter LC cam has when it come up on the came. http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220, http://www.popularhotrodding.com/en6em_camshaft_specs/lobe_seperation_angle.html. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Given that nitrous works best in the mid- to upper-rpm range, nitrous-powered engines need a wider lobe separation, like 112 . Save Share. However, the plentiful exhaust overlap (31 degrees) meant there was lots of exhaust dilution at low engine speed and high vacuum. The exhaust has an opening even and a closing event. Anybody here run a 108 LSA? Its also critical that valve overlap is kept to a minimum as the induction system can create a suction that pulls water into the motor, adds Bolander. Topping the short-block was a set of Chevrolet Performance CNC LS3 heads from Gandrud Chevrolet. Split duration/lift only helps when your intake/exhaust ratio is low on the exhaust side. A cam with 110 lobe center will pull approximately 14-18"of vacuum is borderline for that type of application. The intake lobe centerline is measured in crankshaft degrees. I think that cam had 110 lobe sep. Im loking at a summit cam with close to the same lift and duration #s but 114 lobe sep. 06 The ported heads featured a 2.165/1.590-inch valve combo. For example, an oval-track small-block that needs to motivate the car off the turns quickly might have a narrow LSA of around 106 degrees, resulting in more overlap. Come join the discussion about restoration, modifications, NOS parts, troubleshooting, VIN codes, and more! Widening their separation angle helps increase upper rpm power output. But, you may find it quite shocking that the piston-to-valve clearances decreasing rate raises the chance of damaging the valve by the piston. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. 110 LSA: On the contrary, if you look at the powerband at 110 LSA, the powerband is comparatively broader. All three terms are similar, as they all relate to the relationship between the centerline of the Intake lobe and the centerline of the Exhaust lobe. These favorable mechanical features depict the powerful acceleration capacity of the engine with higher oil and energy consumption rate, overheating problems, and other mechanical problems. I wouldn't assume 4 links fuel requirements will mirror yours at all. Noah knows a lot about whats happening in the car industry with the latest piloting productions thanks to his professional experience. The 234o duration kind of eliminates the RV usage. If identical and for a given displacement the 110 will give more power. Engine knocking generally occurs when the burning of the fuel by the engine is uneven. It also depends on what the vehicle will be used for and if economy and vacuum are important. by Hoxviii Mon May 12, 2003 7:50 pm, Post I personally prefer to sacrifice the small amount more power for better idle quality. This overlapping has a direct influence on the oil consumption rate of the engine. ALL bolts are ARP. The 114 LSA is good for a blower or nitros motor. The tighter the lobe center, the lower the RPM range; the wider the lobe center, the higher the RPM range. Lobe seperation cant be seperated from duration,the 2 are connected.the old duntov cam had a lot less duration than many new cams so the valve overlap was not extreme and the engine ran with a gentle lope.Increase the duration by 20* and this cam would shake a 283 out of the car at idle,but then increase the lobe seperation by 4* and the motor will have a gentle lope again. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Disclaimer: Remember to always consult with an expert first before trying anything at home. LSA helps determine the cam's behavior; you can take a given set of lift and duration figures, change the LSA, and get cams with vastly different characteristics. As the RPM's go up this is not as critical as the higher velocity of the air/fuel moving thru keeps it from getting contaminated. If you want a lumper idle go with a cam with 108 LSA, the tigher the LSA the idle will be rougher. The 108-degree cam (blue lines) outperformed the other two, but idle quality suffered. We use 86b webcams with 1.25 rockers frequently in stroker motors.It's a nice way of getting close to .500" for hot street motors with average heads. Due to the tightness and frequent overlapping of the intake and exhaust valves, the engine cant generate the high RPM as it is supposed to. JavaScript is disabled. That was just a glimpse of the information you were looking for. The 110 is probably a better choice for a performance street engine. As boost increases, the air will be forced through the cylinder, vs. being trapped in the cylinder. not exactly true, Ive seen custom grinds that are on 108 lca, smooth idle, high vacuum an even able to run efi, usually on an off the shelf cam it is true. Making this the biggest obstacle to overcome when selecting a cam profile with one of our tech advisors, explaining the definition and importance of the Lobe Center. This may be of concern if you have vacuum assisted accessories, such as power brakes or steering. Here are the basics: higher lift values open the valves to increase airflow and longer duration keeps the valves open longer. Contrariwise, 106 LSA car engines are the best choice for people seeking energy-efficient cars with moderate engine power. Depending on the engine combination, the opposite results can occur. 108: 110: 112: 114 . such as 290 @.050? More over-simplifications: LSA CAM TEST-108 vs 112 vs 120 Richard Holdener 239K subscribers 168K views 2 years ago WESTECH PERFORMANCE GROUP FULL RESULTS-CHANGE ONLY LSA-LS CAM TEST. Selecting a camshaft for a given engines purpose usually involves a compromise between low- or high-end power options, and the lobe separation angle (LSA) is one of those factors where engine builders have to make a choice between those priorities. Average power was also down, but the engine pulled ahead of the 101 cam at 5,400 rpm, picking up 6.5 hp at peak. A wider lobe center will give you more overall torque (comes in earlier and stays later). . 106 LSA: The overlapping is higher as 106 LSA is comparatively tighter LSA than 110 LSA. Alternatively, if you are running a bigger camshaft to gain maximum top-end power, cam makers often suggest reducing the lobe separation angle to recover power lost in the lower rev range.. On a torque graph it tends to resemble a triangular shape.. by SStrokerAce Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:22 am, Post Comparison Table Between 106 Vs 110 Lobe Separation Angle. This process slows down the reaction rates of the air-fuel mixture, causing temperatures to drop and preventing the engine from overheating. The power and torque curve lay directly in between the last two cams, as did the peak horsepower and torque, 488.7 at 6,200 rpm and 487.1 at 4,600 rpm, respectively. This recommendation is only if you shift at no more than 7000. somthing to that aspect. Introduction. Part Number: HRS-CL120325-08. Now lets move to the exhaust. It is the average centerline between both lobes and expressed in degrees ranging from 95 on the extremely narrow/tight side to upward of 120 on the wide end. Good cam for a lower rpm street engine. Since we were only changing the lobe separation angle, we had to make sure every variable (air/fuel, timing, water, air, and oil temps) was identical during testing. It affects the powerband and temperament of a motor more than any other single part, and a slight change can turn a car from a mild-tempered grocery-getter to a downright nasty machine. This is why the LS series, and many other modern engines, can make great power on top and bottom with wide LSA camshafts and why a plethora of factory cylinder heads are flowing near (or above) 300 cfm. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. its got a 3.73 posi and the Stock 4 speed with a very low 3.42 1st gear. Generally, naturally aspirated engines run narrower lobe separation angles of around 106 to 108 whereas supercharged, turbo or nitrous engines operate with 112 to 114 and higher. The piston and cylinder damage possibility is pretty low at 110 LSA. Thanks again. by 3V Performance Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:38 pm, Post Lower cylinder pressure is advantageous for your engine. by jobes Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:51 pm, Post Tight LSA cams make excellent low-end torque and have a beautiful power curve. If a street car has smaller lift and duration numbers, they might run 112 or 114. Knife edged & profiled 4MA Cleveland crank weighing 50lbs. 106 LSA: On the contrary, if we look at the 106 LSA, we will find it more advantageous and energy efficient than the 110 LSA engine. Well get out of that stocker and build a hipo motor for your VW. And better gas mileage. I just installed a Comp Cams XE262 in a 9:1 350 with stock iron heads. Exhaust reversion is another undesirable side effect that can be caused by overlap. But, the internal processings are much more complicated. LS Exhaust Manifold Bolt Torque (Everything You Need To Know), Holley Power Valve Sizes: Everything There is to Know. And better gas mileage. We even treated them to some chamber work before installation. Most cars use more than, Read More Does It Matter Which Ignition Coil Goes Where? 110 LSA: But here, quite surprisingly, you have to face the reduction of the EGR effect due to the 110 LSA. I just bought a 86b Webcam with 112 lobe centers for my 2276. Build your own custom newsletter with the content you love from EngineLabs, directly to your inbox, absolutely FREE! My duration will be about 230 degrees. But, the narrow or broad powerband choice varies from person to person. Your email address will not be published. 108 versus 110 will drive the power band down. A wider lobe separation angle can often provide more power, but it can also lead to more wear on the engine. LSA is a way of summing up the relative timing of the intake-valve events (intake opening, intake closing) to the exhaust-valve events (exhaust opening, exhaust closing) in relation to each other, and it's a great approximation of how the engine will operate. NOTE: Classic Inlines stocks the above profiles in 108, 110, and 112 lobe centers. True enough, the tight LSA improved power through the entire rev range, from 3,600 to 6,500 rpm, but the extra power came with a penalty in idle quality. But, after comparing these two LSA based on a few mechanical aspects, such as maximum Torque, RPM, powerband, oil consumption, and many more, you will find the 106 LSA with better performance output. Tight lobe separations, such as 108 or shorter, will cause the peak torque to build earlier in the RPM range and peak-out in a short amount of . 110 LSA: On the contrary, it is pretty unpleasant to inform you that the efficient compression rate decreases at 110 LSA. So, which is better? However, a cam with 108 will only pull 12-16", which is not enough for power assisted accessories. by xstfudonniex Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:24 pm, Post 114LSA +4 puts the intake centerline at 110 degrees before top dead center. The stock valvesprings supplied with the CNC LS3 heads were swapped out in favor of a set of dual springs from Brian Tooley Racing. The graph above compares intake valve closing points of the three cams used in the test. The final, 108-degree cam stepped power up even further, with peaks of 572 hp at 6,300 rpm and 544 lb-ft at 5,200 rpm. A few other major and, Read More Heres What Causes Your Car to Bog Down When AcceleratingContinue, Your email address will not be published. Meaning the lower lobe seperation will have a very quick and fast powerband (Snappy!) If that accessory still does not assist the cam in producing enough vacuum, then as a last resort you can use a vacuum pump. The final cam was tighter still, with a 108-degree LSA. It produces peak torque earliercoming on quicker and strongerbut also it falls off quicker too. These issues can often be worked through by an advanced tuner, but always present a challenge and compromise in tuning strategy. Also If you go with 112 lobe centers, you create less valve overlap which will increase your compretion. If you take any of the . LSA is the distance from the centerline of the intake lobe to the centerline of exhaust lobe. While a cam with a 108 lobe center will idle rougher. Before getting to the cam profiles, we had to make sure we had a reasonable test engine. Lucky for us, Brian Tooley Racing stepped up with a dual spring package that allowed us to safely run our 0.624-lift cam. Good cam for a lower rpm street engine. I have Crane hydraulic link bar style roller lifters, so I dont have to use the spider style. The intake air control valve (IAC), which regulates idle speed, also has to work overtime and often attempts to "catch" the idle, but usually shoots high or low. Fixing the ignition coils is essential when you experience issues like engine misfire and the Check Engine light that wont go off. by farmer Mon May 12, 2003 3:14 pm, Post 2.1.2.4.2 Side-lobe suppression shall be provided in accordance with the provisions of 3.1.2.1.5.2.1 on all Mode S-only all-call interrogations. Frankly cams with a 108-114 lca unless in the perfect combo you won't usually see more than 15hp and you won't really feel the difference except for either a peaky or broad power band. I am pretty sure, right now, you find yourself in the middle of the rising debate of 106 vs 110 lobe separation angle. = Moderate 108-106 Deg. The 290 advertised duration and 114 lobe separation would contribute to a lazy power curve. Maybe even 114. The engine would idle a lot rougher and generate worse exhaust emissions largely because of unburned fuel.. It's the scavenging effect of the high velocity exhaust gases rushing out that pulls the fresh fuel/air charge into the chamber. lobe centers and lobe separation are 2 different things . you cannot just take a random change in a lobe separation angle and say 1 is better than the other. A wide LSA reduces valve overlap, softens the idle and improves overall drivabilityespecially on the street where performance engines benefit from 112 to 114 LSA. A Pro Stock engine builder may prefer a wide LSA to help keep the power from breaking traction tOo early. Also present during testing was a set of 1 7/8-inch Kooks headers, Comp hydraulic roller lifters, and F-body oil pan. in some cases,, the average torque can equal out. 554"/577" lift. JavaScript is disabled. Professionally ported & polished iron 4V head with titanium intake valves, stainless exhaust, titanium retainers & keepers & dual springs. . The takeaway from this test is camshaft LSA is a double-edged sword. A cam with a tighter LSA will require a looser torque converter, may not be able to run vacuum-assisted brakes, and doesn't play nice with fuel injection. by xstfudonniex Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:21 pm, Post 106 LSA: There is an increasing chance of engine knock at the 106 lobe separation angle. The 114 cam will give more low end torque, good midrange, less power up high. The only reason the advance or retard a camshaft profile is to get the timing events where they need to be. It affects the amount of valve overlap; that is the brief period of time when both the intake and exhaust valves are open.. "When you've properly tuned a performance motor, you create high- and low-pressure waves in the intake and exhaust that help cylinder filling," said Comp Cams' Billy Godbold. If two cams are identical with the exception of lobe separation angle (we'll say 108 and 114) the cam with 114LSA will make more low end power than the 108LSA cam? TH400 Vs Powerglide: Which One is Ideal for You? = Moderately Tight 106-104 Deg. The introduction of Lunati'snew Bootleggerhydraulic series - with its wicked 108-degree lobe-separation angle, fast opening profile and plenty of area under the lift curve - will serve only to fuel the flames on this heated bench-racing topic. Despite no changes in lift or duration, this cam sounded much more aggressive than the other two with wider LSAs. The LSA, or lobe separation angle, is ground into the cam and cannot be changed. Howards Cam Vs Comp Cam: Which Is The Best Option For You? Consequently, decreased torque rate often leads to more energy consumption. All testing was performed with an Aeromotive fuel pump feeding a set of 42-lb/hr injectors. A wide lobe seperation is not always better than a narrow one, or vise versa. The lobe separation angle is the angle in camshaft degrees between the maximum lift points, or centerlines, of the intake and exhaust lobes. Another related thought to consider when selecting a cam is inches of vacuum for your engine application when deciding upon a Lobe Center. Yearh, I have been reading a lot about this issue. Powerband serves a massive contribution to the acceleration car. As lobe seperation spreads does the powerband. 292S-112: 292/292 - 240/240 - .495/.495 - 112* - 3400-7200. It is possible to advance and retard the timing events, but the distance between the centerline of the lobes will remain constant. Because during the lower units oil change, you can go through the issue that the lower plug, Read More Yamaha Lower Unit Drain Plug Size [Explained Everything]Continue, Among the crucial parts of a vehicle ignition system is the ignition coil, also called a spark coil. But for small-block Chevys (like the LS applications in this story), the LSA is ground into the cam. Moreover, a user from the Chevelle forum said. Walter Noah is a process engineer who has a knack for resolving even the toughest technical issue. A commonly held misconception is that intake/exhaust overlap contributes to lower cranking compression. 09 All testing was run through a set of 1 3/4-inch long-tube headers and 3-inch exhaust. I don't know about 13 to one but I have seen 12 to one on a 350 chev in hot rod article, BUT the guy soft petals around on the street with no full throttle use and puts racing gas in at the track. 106 LSA: At this LSA, the car machine has to confront the reduction of idle vacuum rate quite often. The engine will have weak performance in the low-end range.A low vacuum can also cause the brake pedal to be quite difficult to press. I've seen a few comments in threads on here that have said things like "going to the 112LC from the 108LC gives 4lbft more torque at the bottom and 2bhp more at the top" yet this would seem to go against what webcam say on. It is the angle that separates the intake and exhaust lobe for a particular cylinder, and is measured in camshaft degrees. Enter lobe separation angle. Whatever you do, stay under 270 advertised duration and shoot for a 110 lobe separation. Camshafts with a substantial overlapping tendency should not be used in vehicles driven on public streets. A 232 deg duration cam with a 108 deg LCA will have the same valve overlap as a 236 deg cam with a 110 deg LCA and idle will probably be very similar. But it is a piece of good news for your engine. Its the shifting problem again with your Chevy! This table will create a map in your head, and I bet it will make your understanding crystal clear. = Moderately Wide 110-108 Deg. We will also custom grind any of the above profiles with a custom lobe center, for an additional $20 dollars. Lobe separations gives lots of overlap and lobe centers just happens when the grinder decides how the peak of the lobe will arrive on a specific grind by their tooling. The #1 intake lobe centerline is usually between 100 If you shift at 7500-7800 add 4-6 degrees to both intake and exhaust and spread the lobe separation to 108-110. So, you can enjoy a mighty acceleration power at 110 LSA. However, these rules are not absolute. That means your engine can produce more power with a minimum amount of fuel combustion. But to choose the perfect cam, all of that information needs understanding. Well, If I am not mistaken, you must be looking for which angle has what impact on your engine or which would be the best. An icon used to represent a menu that can be toggled by interacting with this icon. Call for details with your specific combination. The 110 is probably a better choice for a performance street engine. The lobe separation angle is a comprise of what the engine needs depending on the compression, combustion chamber, rpm, engine size, head volume, and many, many other variables. More than any other component, the cam profile determines things like idle quality, mileage, and overall driveability. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. The first cam featured a wide 120-degree LSA, while cam number two narrowed the angle to 112 degrees. "When the low-pressure wave in the exhaust reflects into the intake, the pressure delta actually helps pull air and fuel into the cylinder. However, it is fixable. by Paul H Tue May 13, 2003 1:24 pm, Post As a result of this fall, the idle of the engine has to face suffering quite often. on average with a N/A motor if you stick the two cams in at the track the tighter lsa will be faster at the expense of idle quality. A wider LSA moves intake- and exhaust-valve events farther apart and creates less overlap, which hurts intake-wave tuning. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. In the 106 LSA, the engine can reach the maximum torque, making the driving more efficient and saving energy. If the overlap phase occurs too early, it will create an overly rich condition in the exhaust port, severely decreasing the gas mileage. Higher lift and longer duration profiles add power, but do so at higher engine speeds (especially true of duration). The same is true for intake valve closing. You are using an out of date browser. As you can see in the graph, the 101 LSA cam actually had the highest cranking compression of the batch: 185 psi. I'd run it, just be sure to check valve to piston clearance, coil bind and retainer to guide boss/seal clearance. Well, there can be different reasons for this problem. GRIND #: CRB3 3194 /3196 HR111. Also know as Lobe Separation; Lobe Center is simply the distance between the peak opening points on the Intake and Exhaust lobes. Aeromotive; 913.647.7300; AeromotiveInc.com, AFR Heads; 661.257.8124; AirFlowResearch.com, Federal Mogul/Felpro; 248.354.7700; FederalMogul.com, Mahle; 248.347.9700; Mahle-Aftermarket.com, Scat Enterprises; 310.370.5501 ScatEnterprises.com, SuperFlow Dynamometers and Flow Benches; 515.254.1654; SuperFlow.com. Supercharged and nitrous race engines typically benefit from a wider LSA because they dont require as much overlap for exhaust scavenging as does the naturally aspirated engine, continues Bolander. AquaTraction Vs SeaDek: Which One Is Better For you? A forum community dedicated to Ford performance owners and enthusiasts. Increased overlap improves upper RPM power. Although both wide (112-116) and narrow (102-110) lobe separation angles do have an effect on overlap, it's still possible to get a lot of overlap with very wide lobe separation angle cams. I had an XE 274 in it. ditto with the above. A 110-degree lobe separation angle means that the peak opening points of the intake and exhaust lobes are 110 degrees apart. A cam in the 110112 LSA range provides the necessary idle lobe to appease gearhead ears with acceptable manifold vacuum to run vacuum-operated accessories. Thanks for the replies so far. Re: Lobe separations on 383-406 cids.104-106-108-110. The tightest LSA (101) was worth 21.5 lb-ft of torque and a much broader powerbandat the cost of much lower idle vacuum, which would make it more temperamental in a street car. It's wet flow tested at 690cfm. To further minimize any dyno variations, the engine's oil and water temperatures were kept the same for each pull.

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